Tangerine_Stripes
Posts:295
Location: Fort Worth
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| 01/19/2008 12:15 PM |
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Just a question, why are push systems prohibited? I mean it would keep you from having to have four or five bottles to run a race. Or from having to keep the bottles topped off. And it would maintain the same relatively close pressure if we were allowed to run them. So the racing would be better. The only difference you would see is the stabilized pressure would make for more consistent passes, throughout the evening.
Just curious, not trying to start a gigantic war of opinions. |
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THE Mightiest of Mouses |
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chopstix
Posts:16
Location: Temple
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| 01/25/2008 9:08 PM |
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I would also like some information on this, as I am planning on adding one to my current setup. I would also like to start running the TTT5 series. I have spoken with tech officials of both NHRA and IHRA and both sanctioning bodies have O.K'd them. There are even companies that are producing prepackaged kits with anti-reversion check valves in place to avoid cross contamination. They also run off compressed air so there are no harmfull chemicals being carried in the car.
As stated before these systems allow the user to maintain bottle pressure and make more passes per bottle. |
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94 Formula, AFR227's, Vic-E, and a little nitrous
Just your avg TX street car. |
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TTT5
Posts:62
Location:
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| 01/26/2008 5:18 PM |
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| TTT5 has never allowed push systems. One of the main reasons is it makes it a tuners race. This is the start of year seven and all the racers have found a way to be competive and stay with in the rules. There is no quick fix to be sucessful. Rules state one bottle. Hope you guys don't let this rule stop you from racing. |
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Tangerine_Stripes
Posts:295
Location: Fort Worth
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| 01/26/2008 8:27 PM |
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No, it would never stop me from racing. Just seems no different than a boost controller for a turbo. Keeps the bottle pressure consistent.
Actually it's the same putting a fresh bottle in every other race. So, that is why I don't see why they aren't allowed.
Like I said, just asking. |
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THE Mightiest of Mouses |
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chopstix
Posts:16
Location: Temple
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| 01/27/2008 1:07 PM |
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Posted By Tangerine_Stripes on 01/26/2008 8:27 PM
No, it would never stop me from racing. Just seems no different than a boost controller for a turbo. Keeps the bottle pressure consistent.
Actually it's the same putting a fresh bottle in every other race. So, that is why I don't see why they aren't allowed.
Like I said, just asking.
I was just looking for a way to reduce the cost to attend each race.
If I can't run my NANO system, it means I will be getting a Hot Box and 4-5 more bottles.
If the NANO was allowed It would save me $5-700 in intial cost and $175+ per race I would attend.
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94 Formula, AFR227's, Vic-E, and a little nitrous
Just your avg TX street car. |
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Turbostang
Posts:2163
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| 01/28/2008 6:31 PM |
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It's a completely different animal.
The boost controller does no more than a nitrous controller - it regulates pressure to the top of the wastegate as the nitrous controller regulates the volume of nitrous that gets into the engine and at what rate. They work on EXACTLY the same principal.
With a secondary bottle, you are adding something that is normally not there. I.e. more than 10# (or 15#) of nitrous is normally not in a car at this level. Sometimes, but not often.
Not to mention, if you could view the program logic, I am relatively certain that most of the boost controllers would look amazingly simlar to a nitrous controller in that respect - the only differences bieng the newer boost controllers like the AMS1000. Just like nitrous controllers, they have advanced a LOT in the recent years.
....and a boost controller does not use any form of gas that will make it into the motor to produce more power.
Just food for thought, As for the rule, I don't know - it was before my time. |
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Tangerine_Stripes
Posts:295
Location: Fort Worth
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| 01/28/2008 7:23 PM |
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True, but no matter how you look at it it does the exact same thing as putting in a fresh bottle every other pass. It's merely making it more cost effective to race all night on two bottles than keep on filling them or have 5 or 6. It's not a tuning issue. In my opinion.
The nitrous controller does the tuning. If your dumb enough to go up to the line with a half empty bottle and 600 lbs of pressure, you should lose the race.
Plain and simple, push sytems make absolutely 0% more power than having a fresh bottle. It merely uses all the nitrous in the bottle. And keeps it at the same pressure. The push sytems use Nitrogen not Nitrous, so when you are out of nitrous, you are out of nitrous. No oxygen in the nitrogen=no power adder |
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Turbostang
Posts:2163
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| 01/28/2008 7:29 PM |
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Well, now, with the advent of the 7531, you almost don't need a boost controller...but the turbo's output never diminishes - like a nitrous bottle. So, then, the pusher becomes additional power (?) ...or additional supplement (?) or whatever you want to call it.
...but I certainly agree, if you are dumb, or forgetful enough, to come to the line with a half empty bottle - well you know the rest.
Why not run just a single, bigger, bottle? Like a 15#'er?
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chopstix
Posts:16
Location: Temple
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| 01/28/2008 7:34 PM |
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Posted By Turbostang on 01/28/2008 6:31 PM
It's a completely different animal.
The boost controller does no more than a nitrous controller - it regulates pressure to the top of the wastegate as the nitrous controller regulates the volume of nitrous that gets into the engine and at what rate. They work on EXACTLY the same principal.
I agree on this
Posted By Turbostang on 01/28/2008 6:31 PM
With a secondary bottle, you are adding something that is normally not there. I.e. more than 10# (or 15#) of nitrous is normally not in a car at this level. Sometimes, but not often.
The secondary bottle is nothing more than compressed air. It does not increase the volume of nitrous. It only stabilizes bottle pressure.
Posted By Turbostang on 01/28/2008 6:31 PM
....and a boost controller does not use any form of gas that will make it into the motor to produce more power.
neither does a push system.....if you run out of nitrous in the bottle and inject this mysterious gas, the car will go pig rich and lose power.
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94 Formula, AFR227's, Vic-E, and a little nitrous
Just your avg TX street car. |
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chopstix
Posts:16
Location: Temple
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| 01/28/2008 7:37 PM |
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Posted By Turbostang on 01/28/2008 7:29 PM
Why not run just a single, bigger, bottle? Like a 15#'er?
Its not a question of volume....it is a matter of pressure. Even with a 15# bottle pressure drop during a run can be quite severe. Turbo/SC's dont lose boost as they go down the track.
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94 Formula, AFR227's, Vic-E, and a little nitrous
Just your avg TX street car. |
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Turbostang
Posts:2163
Forum Nazi
Location:
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| 01/28/2008 7:39 PM |
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Posted By chopstix on 01/28/2008 7:34 PM Posted By Turbostang on 01/28/2008 6:31 PM
It's a completely different animal.
The boost controller does no more than a nitrous controller - it regulates pressure to the top of the wastegate as the nitrous controller regulates the volume of nitrous that gets into the engine and at what rate. They work on EXACTLY the same principal. I agree on this Posted By Turbostang on 01/28/2008 6:31 PM
With a secondary bottle, you are adding something that is normally not there. I.e. more than 10# (or 15#) of nitrous is normally not in a car at this level. Sometimes, but not often. The secondary bottle is nothing more than compressed air. It does not increase the volume of nitrous. It only stabilizes bottle pressure. Posted By Turbostang on 01/28/2008 6:31 PM
....and a boost controller does not use any form of gas that will make it into the motor to produce more power. neither does a push system.....if you run out of nitrous in the bottle and inject this mysterious gas, the car will go pig rich and lose power.
See, I've never used a pusher system - but I've heard it can go either way. Now, where does the compressed air go?
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Tangerine_Stripes
Posts:295
Location: Fort Worth
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| 01/28/2008 7:46 PM |
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It goes into the motor, but all the fuel that would normally be dumped in with the nitrous is still going in too. So it will just go all the way fat.
There are a couple of systems out now,some use compressed air and one or two use straight nitrogen. |
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chopstix
Posts:16
Location: Temple
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| 01/28/2008 7:49 PM |
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The system uses a secondary bottle....it is pressureized to 4500psi. They have an internal regulator and an anti-reversion check valve. This will bleed pressure from the small bottle into the nitrous bottle as the liquid is used. This will keep bottle pressure at the preset point until the nitrous bottle is empty.
here is a pic of a NANO system installed on a 15# bottle
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh294/8secvet/NanoRocks002.jpg
The 2 most common gases to use in these are nitrogen and HPA (high pressure compressed air). Neither of these will mix with the liquid nitrous and if for some reason you would run the nitrous empty they will not harm the motor and will only cause the car to run rich. Exatly as if you sprayed fuel only. |
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94 Formula, AFR227's, Vic-E, and a little nitrous
Just your avg TX street car. |
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Chris
Posts:115
Location:
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| 02/01/2008 10:40 AM |
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| http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40482 |
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kneel&bob
Posts:9
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| 02/07/2008 7:12 PM |
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| TWO WORDS.......FIRE BAD!!!!!!! i think there should be more investigation before anyone says yes or no. i don't see there being a performance advantage with a NANO system, rather more consistent bottle pressure at the big end. like a "black box" for the turbo guys. more cosistency would be the better term. take the boost controller off the turbo cars and tell me there is no advantage.likewise for a timing computer or a transbrake....seems to me if you can keep the cost down it would be more $ for drag burgers at Kennedale. |
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Turbostang
Posts:2163
Forum Nazi
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| 02/07/2008 7:26 PM |
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Posted By kneel&bob on 02/07/2008 7:12 PM
TWO WORDS.......FIRE BAD!!!!!!! i think there should be more investigation before anyone says yes or no. i don't see there being a performance advantage with a NANO system, rather more consistent bottle pressure at the big end. like a "black box" for the turbo guys. more cosistency would be the better term. take the boost controller off the turbo cars and tell me there is no advantage.likewise for a timing computer or a transbrake....seems to me if you can keep the cost down it would be more $ for drag burgers at Kennedale.
Brad - more consistent bottle pressure is exactly that, a performance advantage.
What is this "black box"? A boost controller never introduces a secondary gas into the motor in any way shape or form. There is no opportunity to do so, since the lines aren't connected to the intake in anyway. (only to the wastegate)
With a pusher style system, there is a secondary supply - or rather, a chance for a secondary supply.
The part I don't understand is, the fastest cars in E/S don't have this setup and have never asked for it. Flores, Dinkle, Riggins, the silver Mustang... none of them have asked for it (that I know of) or used it prior to the rule change.. |
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Chris
Posts:115
Location:
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| 02/07/2008 7:26 PM |
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| Black Box? thats cute |
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Chris
Posts:115
Location:
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| 02/07/2008 7:28 PM |
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Posted By Turbostang on 02/07/2008 7:26 PM Posted By kneel&bob on 02/07/2008 7:12 PM
TWO WORDS.......FIRE BAD!!!!!!! i think there should be more investigation before anyone says yes or no. i don't see there being a performance advantage with a NANO system, rather more consistent bottle pressure at the big end. like a "black box" for the turbo guys. more cosistency would be the better term. take the boost controller off the turbo cars and tell me there is no advantage.likewise for a timing computer or a transbrake....seems to me if you can keep the cost down it would be more $ for drag burgers at Kennedale. Brad - more consistent bottle pressure is exactly that, a performance advantage. What is this "black box"? A boost controller never introduces a secondary gas into the motor in any way shape or form. There is no opportunity to do so, since the lines aren't connected to the intake in anyway. (only to the wastegate) With a pusher style system, there is a secondary supply - or rather, a chance for a secondary supply. The part I don't understand is, the fastest cars in E/S don't have this setup and have never asked for it. Flores, Dinkle, Riggins, the silver Mustang... none of them have asked for it (that I know of) or used it prior to the rule change..
No cars use one!! If they are such a great deal how come I have never seen one in KOTH car or promod? |
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kneel&bob
Posts:9
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| 02/07/2008 7:59 PM |
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YOU WILL................ WHAT is the performance advantage of compressed nitrogen or compressed air? Are boost controllers a performance advantage or not. I think there should be more discussion about it instead of just shunning it.
Black boxes are in airplanes and are considered "MYSTERIOUS"
Al Czervik: Oh, this is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh it looks good on you though.
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Turbostang
Posts:2163
Forum Nazi
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| 02/07/2008 8:05 PM |
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Posted By kneel&bob on 02/07/2008 7:59 PM
YOU WILL................ WHAT is the performance advantage of compressed nitrogen or compressed air? Are boost controllers a performance advantage or not. I think there should be more discussion about it instead of just shunning it.
Black boxes are in airplanes and are considered "MYSTERIOUS"
Al Czervik: Oh, this is the worst-looking hat I ever saw. What, when you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup, huh? Oh it looks good on you though.
Your cryptic posts make my head hurt. Rules are rules, and they are there for a reason.
Now, you need to go back and read what I said a couple of posts up. |
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