michaelts71
Posts:101
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| 10/27/2009 8:37 PM |
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Posted By supernova on 10/27/2009 8:05 PM Posted By michaelts71 on 10/27/2009 7:48 PM Posted By supernova on 10/27/2009 7:42 PM Posted By Pro Street D on 10/27/2009 7:08 PM
It could we have not had a .073 jet the biggest we had was a .068. The thing about the .061 that is about 125 hp when you call marty or ati and tell them everything and what you need they ask why are you even running nitrous. Every company had a very hard time building a convertor to that pill. I sent everyone back about 3 times or more. Now will that help out with and .078 and run those numbers don't know would have to try and see. The deal with Bein's car is I bet his 522 makes almost as much power as my engine does. I bet his makes close to 850 or more. Then you have to look he gets a 100 weight break. Then you have to look at he has to add weight to even make weight. So to answer your question David I think it would help out because it would give me something to work with on the top end. With the .068 jet you just don't have any top end. When I raced Bein at TXR we had the same 60' the same 330' he just ran off and left me on the top end of the track. But something you also have to look at the two small block that was at the top still have some left. So the rest of the small block will have to also step up there game. I think thay should cut the nitrous back and slow the car down again. It would save money and not put most of every one's stuff on the ragid edge. But I have yet to race with you guy's so what do I know. Next year I promise. Heads are back off and being worked on as we type.  If you think everyones stuff is on the ragged edge on a 150-250 shot your sadly mistaken! May be it's my STOCK tall deck block I'm worried about. It's 1100 + hp on a 78 size pill that scares me!!! 
If you do some research there are people that have made WAY more than 1100 with the same STOCK tall deck block.... Just sayin!
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Unc
Posts:521
Location: Watauga Texas
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| 10/27/2009 11:28 PM |
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Posted By Pro Street D on 10/27/2009 8:03 PM
Mikey I am on the same page with you if 250 hp of nitrous is going to kill your stuff maybe you should just stop right now. SLOW us down again what do you want us to do run just on motor. Come on these are two heads up classes they are suppose to be run what you brung and hope you have enough.
I don't think we are going to do anything that will slow the class down. But we are looking at ways to level the playing field between small blocks and big blocks in both classes. We've got a whole season behind us now and I think the committee will make the right decisions. Two different problems in two different classes. In one the small blocks need a break and in the other the big blocks need a break. How we get there is still yet to be determined, but we will do what's best for both classes, I can assure you of that.
Unc
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Melo Yelo 69 Camaro
Rust to Riches Rescue |
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supernova
Posts:174
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| 10/28/2009 8:34 AM |
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Posted By michaelts71 on 10/27/2009 8:37 PM Posted By supernova on 10/27/2009 8:05 PM Posted By michaelts71 on 10/27/2009 7:48 PM Posted By supernova on 10/27/2009 7:42 PM Posted By Pro Street D on 10/27/2009 7:08 PM
It could we have not had a .073 jet the biggest we had was a .068. The thing about the .061 that is about 125 hp when you call marty or ati and tell them everything and what you need they ask why are you even running nitrous. Every company had a very hard time building a convertor to that pill. I sent everyone back about 3 times or more. Now will that help out with and .078 and run those numbers don't know would have to try and see. The deal with Bein's car is I bet his 522 makes almost as much power as my engine does. I bet his makes close to 850 or more. Then you have to look he gets a 100 weight break. Then you have to look at he has to add weight to even make weight. So to answer your question David I think it would help out because it would give me something to work with on the top end. With the .068 jet you just don't have any top end. When I raced Bein at TXR we had the same 60' the same 330' he just ran off and left me on the top end of the track. But something you also have to look at the two small block that was at the top still have some left. So the rest of the small block will have to also step up there game. I think thay should cut the nitrous back and slow the car down again. It would save money and not put most of every one's stuff on the ragid edge. But I have yet to race with you guy's so what do I know. Next year I promise. Heads are back off and being worked on as we type. If you think everyones stuff is on the ragged edge on a 150-250 shot your sadly mistaken! May be it's my STOCK tall deck block I'm worried about. It's 1100 + hp on a 78 size pill that scares me!!! If you do some research there are people that have made WAY more than 1100 with the same STOCK tall deck block.... Just sayin!
I know that but it's the how long or how short will it live at that power level besides what does it matter to you, you don't even race the T/S class and your not spending my money. 1100 hp is a lot of power for a stock block. Ya I know there are lots of stock blocks out there and I've seen lots of them break at lower power levels then what my motor made. I WANT A BETTER BLOCK SO NOT TO BREAK LOTS OF PART AND SPEND LOTS MONEY!!!!!!!
What is sooooooo wrong with that?????????
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AllWrong
Posts:49
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| 10/28/2009 11:17 AM |
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| I'll start by stating the obvious - There isn't going to be a single set of rules to satisfy everyone. That being said, increasing the amount and reducing the spread of nitrous allowed between small blocks and big blocks seems to make the most sense for T/S. Maybe go with 85 for all big blocks and 89 for all small blocks and keep the current weight breaks. That will put more tuning for track conditions into the equation, givng small blocks the edge in hot conditions and big blocks in cooler conditions. Let the weight breaks be the equilizing factor. That's my 2 pennies... |
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II_Slow
Posts:34
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| 10/28/2009 3:10 PM |
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| Small Block combos in Extreme need a weight break. I was getting fairly close last year but the big block really seperated from the pack this year. Riggins SB car can run the numbers but it seems to be killing itself to do it. I'm not interested in killing mine. Of course it will cost money to lighten one as well, but nobody ever said this was cheap. |
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Pro Street D
Posts:307
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| 10/28/2009 8:39 PM |
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Posted By AllWrong on 10/28/2009 11:17 AM
I'll start by stating the obvious - There isn't going to be a single set of rules to satisfy everyone. That being said, increasing the amount and reducing the spread of nitrous allowed between small blocks and big blocks seems to make the most sense for T/S. Maybe go with 85 for all big blocks and 89 for all small blocks and keep the current weight breaks. That will put more tuning for track conditions into the equation, givng small blocks the edge in hot conditions and big blocks in cooler conditions. Let the weight breaks be the equilizing factor. That's my 2 pennies...
Well said or put everyone on the same pill. That way we have the weight to keep the cars even. This whole dill gets me the big block took a butt beating every race for 7 years. Then we finally get something working and rules had to change which is okay. I would say put everyone on a pill between a .093 and .082 then let the weight be the divider. I bet Andy and John Miller cars would both keep up with the big block cars. It would be just the rest that would have to step up there game. Cause the true be know I bet almost every car in true street made more power than Andy's engine makes |
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Boostedgt
Posts:46
Location: Fort Worth
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| 10/28/2009 9:28 PM |
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I've already made a post but I'll post again. I believe the turbo rules in E/S need to be re-evaluated. Here is my other post:
I'd just like to start off by saying the big block nitrous cars in E/S are flat out flying. You guys have it figured out for sure and my hat is off to you guys for that. That also leads me into my concern regarding the E/S rules with regards to a turbo car. The present rules limit a turbo application to 88mm (sleeved,reduced,etc) @ 3350 OR a gt47-88mm @ 3250. Scott Pierson made a valiant attempt to run with you guys and even used the 98/88 @ 3350 which was supposed to be the great equalizer for turbo cars. Nothing against Scott, but 5.30's vs 4.9x-5.0x is a large gap. In my opinion, the turbo rules may need to be relaxed just slightly. I realize that way back in the day when 91.5mm turbos were allowed a certain mustang went a 5.1x @ 140 which basically blew the other cars out of the water by at least two or three tenths. I spent the money and bought the highest flowing 88mm I could have built and I can tell you that 4.9x is nowhere in the ballpark. Even at 3250... I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm just asking for a debate and/or a re-evaluation of the present turbo rules. Thanks a bunch.
Now I know that suggestions are what you're looking for, but I'm not sure what the right call will be for the turbo rules. Maybe allow 91.5 with air/air, 88mm with air/water, and take 100lbs off the turbo weight across the board... I'm just taking a shot in the dark as I really haven't sat down and thought about it. I'd like to hear from the other guys that are thinking about running E/S with a turbo application. |
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Steve G racing
Posts:4
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| 10/28/2009 11:52 PM |
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| I think for t/s, 73 pill for 531 and bigger big blocks. everthing eles stays the same. maybe if the smaller small blocks and the smaller big blocks had a little bigger pill or weight break,that would make it a little more fair for them. just a thought. just for the record, the gold nova is 100% owned and built by Steve Gilbreath. John Miller helps tune the nitrous and is curently driving it. he also talked me into the n/x system. we must be doing something right went 5.46 at 127 sunday at Crandal with the t/s set up and i've only had two torque converters,two planetarys and two rear gears in the car ever |
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Pro Street D
Posts:307
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| 10/29/2009 12:43 AM |
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| I knew it looked pretty good on that pass. |
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supernova
Posts:174
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| 10/29/2009 3:32 AM |
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Posted By Steve G racing on 10/28/2009 11:52 PM
I think for t/s, 73 pill for 531 and bigger big blocks. everthing eles stays the same. maybe if the smaller small blocks and the smaller big blocks had a little bigger pill or weight break,that would make it a little more fair for them. just a thought. just for the record, the gold nova is 100% owned and built by Steve Gilbreath. John Miller helps tune the nitrous and is curently driving it. he also talked me into the n/x system. we must be doing something right went 5.46 at 127 sunday at Crandal with the t/s set up and i've only had two torque converters,two planetarys and two rear gears in the car ever
Steve, What size motor are you running? |
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Steve G racing
Posts:4
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| 10/29/2009 5:51 AM |
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| its a 440 sbc. just a 434 bored to 4.185 |
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BenBoosted
Posts:12
Location: Tomball, TX
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| 10/29/2009 7:52 AM |
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Let's talk turbos for a minute.
I'm going to do some idiot math because I'll be the first to admit, I'm a complete idiot about nitrous. But let's look at some numbers.
Let's take Trevor's car as an example. Not to pick on him, but he's set the bar at a 4.99. His motor is making 1000 HP NA. I've heard numbers over 1100, but for this discussion I think everyone can agree on 1000. Now he has a plate kit which is capable of shooting 1000 HP of nitrous (according to Speedtech). That's a 2000 HP capable combo. I have no idea how much he's actually spraying but if he wants to, at 3350#, he can spray everything that Speedtech plate can dish out and not have to add anymore weight to his car.
Now let's look at turbos. Attached is a scan from Precision Turbo's catalog. A PT-91 is rated at 1550 HP, PT-94 1620 HP, and a PT-98 is rated at 1900 HP. Turbo's don't care as much about what size motor they're on, unlike Nitrous cars because the turbo can only feed so much air and make so much horsepower. It can't make past it's max rating because it can't push anymore air. In essence it becomes a choke point. Even if a PT-91 were legal, I'm not sure it would be enough to go 4.99 in an absolute perfect situation (air temp, track surface, etc). I don't have any experience with a 91mm first hand in order to say. But I do know that guys in the NMRA are running them, and they get to weigh as light as 2900# so we can take their ET's in consideration as long as we keep the weight difference in mind.
You guys mention when Sheffield showed up with a 91mm and went 5.teens a while back, scaring every nitrous car to death. Would anyone be complaining about a turbo car "running away with the class" if a turbo car came out with a 91 and ran 5.teens now? Especially since that's right in the middle of the big block pack?
Just food for thought. I'm not bitching and I'm not asking for a 98mm turbo to be legal, so please don't take it that way. But seriously look at the numbers from one of the top turbo companies out there and compare it with what the big blocks are putting down, especially when turbo cars weigh 3250# and my comparison (Trevor) has a minimum weight of 3350#.
Link to Precision's Catalog - http://saleen.v8mustang.com/pics/precision.JPG |
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Tangerine_Stripes
Posts:586
Location: Fort Worth
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| 10/29/2009 8:52 AM |
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I'll be the first to admit I don't know anything about turbo sizing....but I did have a question for you turbo guys. What size turbo is comparable to an F1R Procharger as far as boost and horsepower capabilities? I know Marty Chance's car has been 5.16 in the heat with an F1R and an air to water @ (I believe) 3200 lbs. Shouldn't something comparable to that be right in the ballpark? Or maybe a tiny bit bigger?
Don't have a clue myself...just throwing it out there as a possible reference point. |
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punisher#1
Posts:143
Location: austin
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| 10/29/2009 9:24 AM |
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it doesn't take 2000 hp to run 4.99. or 145mph. 1500-1600hp should get the job done at 3400lbs.
as for sheffield running those numbers. are you saying that is all he had?
my car is running 2 tenths faster with the same parts and the same basic tune on the nitrous it had at the first of the year. the problem i have seen with the turbo cars is that they want the rules changed before they will come to more than one race.
we will look at the rules for the turbo and forced induction stuff and there may be some adjustments but it is hard to get a handle on what to do when we have never had a turbo or blower car show up for more than 1 or 2 races to see what they are capable of or if they need some help.
we don't want to tell you it's ok to buy an expensive turbo and get it on your car only to have that combination domminate and then have to outlaw it after you have spent that much money. nitrous cars are easy and pills are cheap. |
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BenBoosted
Posts:12
Location: Tomball, TX
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| 10/29/2009 9:42 AM |
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I don't know enough about Sheffields car to say whether or not that's all he had. I'm just using it as an example of a known performance that showed up at a TTT5 race.
Believe me, I don't want you to say some larger size turbo is legal only to have it outlawed after 1 or 2 events. I can't afford to race like that. I also know that if a turbo car comes out and run a 4.99 on the first race of the season, no matter what size it is, it will have the scrutiny of every racer looking at it and talking about slowing it down. Where as if a big block nitrous car runs 4.99 (other than Trevor), everyone will be much more accepting. I know there's more scrutiny on turbo combo's because they are the minority combination and hence lesser known. So if anything, I'm in favor of asking for less of an increase simply because I'd rather race than be outlawed. However, I don't think an 88mm is capable of a 5.0anything at 3250#. Whether or not it takes 2000 HP to run a 4.99 @ 3350# the fact remains that there are 2000 HP capable combo's @ 3350# that are in the other lane.
As for Marty's car, according to Procharger and F1R is good for 1300HP. 5.16 is damned impressive with that small of a blower, but at the same time, I have to believe it's max'ed out at that ET with what I know of that particular model. 5.16 is still a far cry from 4.99 or even a deep 5.0. FYI, an F2R is rated for 1600HP according to Procharger.
Just to put my cards on the table, I have never raced with you guys. But the rules you guys set is reflected in Ultimate Street and Tough Street, which I do race in.
Just $.02. I'm curious to see what BoostedGT has to say on this. |
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michaelts71
Posts:101
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| 10/29/2009 1:06 PM |
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Did sheffield have an 88 or 91mm turbo?
Malouf went the 5.14 @ 140 with the 91 but how long ago was that? Wasnt that back in 05 or 06? |
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Nosjunky1968
Posts:67
Location: Abilene, tx
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| 10/29/2009 1:26 PM |
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Malouf went 5.14 with a 91mm air to air. @3250lbs. I would say allow a 91mm at 3250(whether necked down or not) now with air to water and that would be an excellant place to start. I know what mine has ran with a 91mm at 3250 in 4500ft air.
I agree, 88mm will not get it done at 3250!!! |
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Redneck Forever, possibly the fastest used up, home built, recycled internet junk in texas. |
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punisher#1
Posts:143
Location: austin
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| 10/29/2009 3:04 PM |
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| just a question. at what weight do you turbo guys think an 88 mm would be in the hunt. lets say 5.10 @ 140-142? |
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the world's fastest pontiac powered ford fairmont |
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Bruceo
Posts:5
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| 10/29/2009 5:53 PM |
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Posted By punisher#1 on 10/29/2009 3:04 PM
just a question. at what weight do you turbo guys think an 88 mm would be in the hunt. lets say 5.10 @ 140-142?
the main problem with turbo cars are getting them light,,most are heavy and they arent easy to get light.weight of the turbo,piping,wastegate,BOV,A/W intercooler add up quick.its easier to add a bigger turbo than take off weight on a turbo car.. |
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sbchtt5
Posts:8
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| 10/29/2009 7:23 PM |
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| John I think you answered the turbo question and made a very good point. If it takes 1600 hp at 3400lbs to run a 4.99 put the turbos at 3450 (600 plus inch weight) and let them run a 91 or whatever size turbo is rated for 1600hp!) Keep the 88 the same or even take a little weight off of them. JMO. |
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